total depravity tulip

Lutherans too argue that perseverance is the sole work of God, not of man. Five Point TULIP Calvinism Explained. 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. Total Depravity means that unregenerate man is hopelessly enmeshed in sin, bound by Satan with the chords of spiritual death, and wholly disinterested in the things of the Creator (Spencer, TULIP, 36). CTWeekly delivers the best content from ChristianityToday.com to your inbox each week. Wesleyans are utterly pessimistic about human nature and outrageously optimistic about God's grace. What is Calvinism and is it biblical? - GotQuestions.org It is my opinion that the Christian conception of God current in the middle years of the 20th century, is so decadent, as to be utterly beneath the dignity of the Most High God and actually to constitute for professed believers, something amounting to a moral calamity. Since some are chosen for salvation, others are not. A more nuanced view, which I would take, is that there is truth to be affirmed in four of the five points. It is the ruling power in every aspect of all people: body, soul . Often in evangelicalism, the question is asked are you a Calvinist or an Arminian? No other alternatives are given. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. By clicking Accept All Cookies, you agree to the storing of cookies on your device to enhance site navigation, analyze site usage, and assist in our marketing efforts. Tulip : The Five Points of Calvinism in the Light of Scripture John 6:37, 39, 44, 45; John 15:16, 19; John 17:2, 6, 9; John 21:23; Acts 1:7; Acts 2:23, 39, 47; Acts 3:18; Acts 4:28; Acts 13:48; Acts 17:26; Acts 22:14; Rom. Calvinism teaches that the Elect cannot lose their salvation. 6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. This condition affects every person and it is opposed to truth. by Dr. Charles Hodge, The Five Points of Calvinism by W.J. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. John 15:19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. The English predestination is translated from the Greek word proorizo which means 1) to predetermine, decide beforehand; 2) in the NT, of God decreeing from eternity; 3) to foreordain, appoint beforehand.1 Predestination, then, is the biblical teaching that God predestines certain events and people to accomplish what He so desires. Total Depravity According to Calvinists - Redeeming God . Seaton, The Five Points of Grace by Dr. William Twisse, Propositions and Principles of Divinity by Dr. Theodore Beza, Justification by Grace Alone by Dr. John Calvin, Tip-Toe Through TULIP by Dr. C. Matthew McMahon, Why I am A Calvinist by Dr. C. Matthew McMahon, Total Depravity compiled by Dr. C. Matthew McMahon, Unconditional Election compiled by Dr. C. Matthew McMahon, Limited Atonement compiled by Dr. C. Matthew McMahon, Irresistible Grace compiled by Dr. C. Matthew McMahon, Perseverance of the Saints compiled by Dr. C. Matthew McMahon, Adoring God in Heaven - by Ezekiel Hopkins (1633-1690), Christian Stewardship - What Every Christian Needs to Know, Pastoral Theology and Expository Preaching, Puritan Evangelism - Gospel Proclamation and the Christian Witness, Puritan Worship and the Regulative Principle of Worship, Assurance of Grace and Salvation by William Plumer, Called with a Holy Calling by Robert Murray MCheyne, Conviction and Conversion - by Dr. William S. Plumer (1802-1880), Effectual Calling by Thomas White (d. 1672), Faith and Conversion - by Dr. William S. Plumer (1802-1880), For Whom Did Christ Die? "Total Depravity" in Calvinism - TAFJ Deuteronomy 10:15 The LORD delighted only in your fathers, to love them; and He chose their descendants after them, you above all peoples, as it is this day. Calvinism insists that God must do all the work, from choosing those who will be saved to sanctifying them throughout their lives until they die and go to heaven. The system of Calvinism adheres to a very high view of scripture and seeks to derive its theological formulations based solely on Gods word. Join our mailing list to receive the latest news and updates from A Puritan's Mind, as well as coupons and our newest books published by Puritan Publications. Irresistable Grace- On this point, there are both areas of agreement and disagreement. Irresistable Grace- On this point, there are both areas of agreement and disagreement. Charges of Pelagianism were made, and the matter quickly escalated. Thank you for your interest in supporting CARM. Psalm 78:67-70 Moreover He rejected the tent of Joseph, And did not choose the tribe of Ephraim, 68 But chose the tribe of Judah, Mount Zion which He loved. 42:1; 1 Pet. Total Depravity is a critical, first lesson that one must learn if they are to truly grasp the depth, beauty, and richness of God's sovereign grace. The TULIP is also called the 5 points of Calvinism. Its not something that is tangential or superficial, lying on the surface. Total depravity is the T in TULIP, and is the first point of Calvinism. 2:3), cannot accept or understand spiritual things (1 Cor. In eternity past God elected certain people to be saved. John 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth. The Total Depravity of Man - amazon.com 1:1, 2; Jas. Gods grace is universal, yet those who are saved are so by grace alone. It is a Reformed and Calvinistic theological term which believes that all men are enslaved by the power of sin and if left alone without God, would rather serve their Read More Total Depravity - TULIP Series If humans are totally depraved, then they are unable to make an initial response to God. The Principal Causes of Mans Salvation by John Brinsley PDF ePub Mobi or Printed Book Learn Religions, Aug. 26, 2020, learnreligions.com/five-point-calvinism-700356. Total Depravity - First Presbyterian Church, Jackson, Mississippi Through the Fall of Man, humanity is stained by sin in every aspect: heart, emotions, will, mind, and body. Regarding monergism, there is agreement here. T.U.L.I.P. 1 Kings 20:42 Then he said to him, Thus says the LORD: Because you have let slip out of your hand a man whom I appointed to utter destruction, therefore your life shall go for his life, and your people for his people. , 2 Chronicles 6:6 Yet I have chosen Jerusalem, that My name may be there; and I have chosen David to be over My people Israel.. TULIP is an acronym used to summarize the Five Points of Calvinism, which were codified in the Canons of Dort by the Synod of Dort in 1618 and 1619, which met to address the points raised by the Arminians of that day. There's an acronym that enables us to easily remember these fundamental points - the word "tulip." The "T" standing for total depravity, which simply means that man is a fallen sinner. 1 of 5 . The T in TULIP - Total Depravity - (Hereditary Depravity) - Simply Bible This is not and never was the Calvinistic doctrine. Limited atonement is the view that Jesus Christ died only for the sins of the Elect, according to John Calvin. The Fall of Adam and Other Works by John Greene PDF ePub Mobi or Printed Book 2 Peter 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble. 733.] Among the former are the doctrines of Scripture as the only rule of faith, of the bondage of human free will through sin, and justification (q.v.) Hence, they are called the five points of Calvinism. 22:14.] as formulated by T. Beza. 10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see, and bow down their back always. 11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? In the early seventeenth century, Jacob Arminius, professor of theology at the University of Leiden, came under suspicion by the more orthodox Dutch Calvinists. 24:40 v. 41; Luke 17:3436. Isn't it simple that we are sinners?" However, this doctrine of total depravity is not a dispute as to whether or not we are sinful; it is a dispute over the extent of our sinfulness. Psalm 65:4 Blessed is the man You choose, And cause to approach You, That he may dwell in Your courts. P - Perseverance of the Saints. Luke 8:10 And He said, To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand. (Matthew 11:25). I like to replace the term total depravity with my favorite designation, which is radical corruption. TULIPTotal Depravity . Total Depravity (Part 1): What is Reformed Theology? with R.C. Sproul He was not saying that it was sinful for his mother to have borne children; neither was he saying that he had done something evil by being born. Tulip is a false gospel but nice try . What is predestination and election? The atonement was objectively given for all, but its benefits must be subjectively received by faith. 2 Thus says the LORD who made you And formed you from the womb, who will help you: Fear not, O Jacob My servant; And you, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen. Post Author: Darrell. 6:6; Job 23:13, 14; Psa. 1. 2:1-6) unless we are born again. Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, Why have you made me like this? 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 5:13. In Arminianism, mans response to Gods grace is the deciding factor. He is the author "Hope for Hurting Singles: A Christian Guide to Overcoming Life's Challenges. No one has ever been saved without believing. The TULIP memory tool was solidified at the Synod of Dort (1618-1619), a gathering of Reformed theologians who met in the Netherlands to counter and condemn the teachings of Arminianism. 1:6; Rom. The TULIP stands for Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the saints. The belief in total depravity takes the view that sinfulness pervades all areas of life and human existence. by Matt Slick | Oct 1, 2014 | Questions, Theology. It has also been called total inability, radical corruption, pervasive depravity, righteous incapability. In biblical terms, that means its from the core or very center of our existence. Creedal: TULIP: Total Depravity w/Casey Chalk on Apple Podcasts It would no longer be Christianity. If one of them is removed, then the whole system falls into absurdity and contradiction. 2:1), by nature a child of wrath (Eph. This is not and never was the Calvinistic doctrine. God must call people to salvation through unconditional election. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Total Depravity | Humanity's Radical Corruption | THEOTIVITY The Five Points of Calvinism are often known by the acrostic TULIP. The Doctrine of Total Depravity (1): Free Will - Heidelberg Seminary Human beings have "fallen short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23). And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved. All of Gods elect will be finally saved. McKim, Donald K. (2014-04-21). This idea is that if one accepts Christ at some point in their life, they may then live as they please and still gain eternal life. An Ex-Calvinist's Tiptoe Through TULIP - Total Depravity In Lutheranism, predestination is single rather than double. The saved people are called the Elect. Discovering the Wickedness of Our Heart by Matthew Mead PDF ePub Mobi or Printed Book I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, He who eats My bread has lifted up his heel against Me., If you have any issues, please call the office at 385-246-1048 or email us at. As wicked as Hitler was, we can still conceive of ways in which he could have been even more wicked than he actually was. The word "TULIP" has been used as an acronym for explaining salvation for more than a century. Total Depravity - compiled by Dr. C. Matthew McMahon - A Puritan's Mind 10:15 Deut. Rom. The five points of Calvinism can be summarized by the acronym TULIP. Rather, it would be the vanity of someones unbiblical and unexegetical mind, TULIP, the Fairest Flower in Gods Garden by John Gerstner, The Doctrine of the Saints Perseverance Explained and Confirmed by John Owen, On Election and Particular Atonement in the Gospel Call by John Owen, A Brief Survey of the Origin and Contents of the Five Points of Calvinism by David Steele, A Treatise on the Gift of Perseverance by Augustine, Definite Redemption Jesus Christ Died for Gods Elect by JI Packer, The Five Points of Calvinism by RL Dabney, Gods Sovereignty Displayed by William Gearing. For many are called, but few chosen.. Calvinists cite numerous Scripture verses supporting humanity's fallen and sinful nature, such as Mark 7:21-23, Romans 6:20, and 1 Corinthians 2:14. The word proorizo occurs six times in the New Testament, each time demonstrating that God is the one who is foreordaining and bringing about certain events. Matt. Those who teach "Four Point Calvinism" believe Christ died not for just the Elect but for the entire world. A tulip is a flower with intertwining petals, without which, would not make up a complete flower. Isaiah 44:1-2 Yet hear now, O Jacob My servant, And Israel whom I have chosen. They cannot save themselves. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 11:20; 1 Sam. What does the acronym TULIP stand for? - BibleAsk T - Total Depravity. Total Depravity teaches man has no free will to choose God, but is dead in his transgressions and it is . Ironically, the word radical has its roots in the Latin word for root, which is radix, and it can be translated root or core. 25:34; Mark 13:20, 22; Luke 4:2527; Luke 8:10; Luke 10:20; Luke 18:7; Luke 22:22 Matt. Salah satu cara paling cepat dan cukup mudah untuk memahami keunikan Teologi Reformed yang sangat luas tersebut adalah melalui Lima Pokok Calvinisme yang disingkat TULIP: T = Total Depravity (Kerusakan Total), Unconditional Election (Pemilihan Tanpa Syarat), L = Limited Atonement (Penebusan Terbatas), I = Irresistible Grace (Anugerah yang Tidak Galatians 1:15-17 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mothers womb and called me through His grace, 16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus. John 13:18 I do not speak concerning all of you. This means we are incapable of being saved without God's help. Those not chosen are the damned, destined for an eternity in hell. Total depravity was not one of Calvin's five points; total inability was. 33:19; Deut. This idea is that if one accepts Christ at some point in their life, they may then live as they please and still gain eternal life. TULIPTotal Depravity | 1:2, 20; 2 Pet. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? Total Depravity might be the most unpopular doctrine of the Christian faith today. If one of them is removed, then the whole system falls into absurdity and contradiction. In limited atonement, Calvinists are saying that there was a limit to whose sins were imputed to Christ in a legal sense. It means that the fall was so serious that it affects the whole person. In Lutheranism, predestination is single rather than double. The real starting point is in the second article, unconditional election. We are enslaved to the evil impulses and desires of our hearts. The only way in which a person can escape this radical situation is by the Holy Spirits changing the core, the heart. It would not longer be the doctrines of the Bible. The doctrines are: Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and Perseverance of the saints. The Westminster Dictionary of Theological Terms, Second Edition: Revised and Expanded (Kindle Locations 14590-14592). Arminius was viewed to have seriously deviated from the orthodox doctrines of justification and election. Zavada, Jack. John Wesley. Some people The doctrine of total depravity reflects the Reformed viewpoint of original sin. Even the English word core actually comes from the Latin word cor, which means heart. That is, our sin is something that comes from our hearts. L 2:4) based solely on his sovereign grace (Gal. The common tendency is to ask, "Why such a fuss? 78:67, 68, 7072; Psa. Asbury revival draws massive crowds, over A Discussion of Romans 9 and Predestination. 20:16 [Matt. Total Depravity. A Biblical Defense It is the same with the essential doctrines of salvation. You claim "Tulip is a false gospel", but your claim doesn't make it truth. (In this way, there would be no such thing as a 3 point Calvinist or a 4 point Calvinist (like Amyraldianism)it would be better to say they areconfusedArminians.) I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, He who eats My bread has lifted up his heel against Me., What Paul said Eph. . TULIP (1) - Kerusakan Total (Total Depravity) LIMA POKOK CALVINISME oleh G.J. We need to be regenerated, to be made over again, to be quickened by the power of the Spirit. Total depravity - is it biblical? | GotQuestions.org In this sin, he is a creature that is totally depraved and incapable of obeying the law of God. He contends in his commentary on Genesis: We must never confuse the two. Scriptures on Election: Gods sovereign purpose in salvation. Sign up for our newsletter: with R.C. Because people are dead in their sins, they are unable to initiate a response to God. None of the church fathers believed in it - they all strongly affirmed that man has the power to choose good or evil. The fires were soon rekindled by his followers. The five points "emerged from the Synod of Dort (1618- 19)." 1 . He denied the doctrine of perserverance and questioned whether grace was necessary for one to come to faith. The term radical has to do with something that permeates to the core of a thing. 2:10; Eph. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. Here are a few quotations from second century church fathers: The second belief is "Unconditional election" which teaches that God Himself has chosen who will be saved and who will be lost. 7:6; Isa. Certainly not! Explore the world's faith through different perspectives on religion and spirituality! 19 You will say then, Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in. 20 Well said. Some people assume that the term original sin must refer to the first sinthe original transgression that weve all copied in many different ways in our own lives, that is, the first sin of Adam and Eve. Augustines Calvinism: The Doctrines of Grace in Augustines Writings by C. Matthew McMahon PDF ePub Mobi or Printed Book Sproul's new book. Total Depravity start with a statement that everyone would agree upon which that man is sinful. 2:24) and were canceled on the cross, not when we believe (Col. 2:14). The fall of Adam and Eve (Genesis 3) seriously hurt humanity. 2:14), and a slave of sin (Rom. Calvin's doctrine of theperseverance of the saints is in contrast to the theology of Lutheranism and the Roman Catholic Church, which hold that people can lose their salvation. 2:6, of good angels, 1 Tim. CARM |P.O. It has traditionally been called total depravity for 'T' of TULIP, the first of five points of Calvinism. Often in evangelicalism, the question is asked are you a Calvinist or an Arminian? No other alternatives are given. 19 You will say to me then, Why does He still find fault? We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Of Your holy temple. (In this way, there would be no such thing as a 3 point Calvinist or a 4 point Calvinist (like Amyraldianism)it would be better to say they are. Plucking the TULIP (1) - An Orthodox Critique of the Reformed Doctrine 1:4, He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him., 1 Tim. This set of religious principles is the work of John Calvin (1509-1564), a French church reformer who had a permanent influence on several branches of Protestantism. However, we dont limit saving grace to the elect, but teach that grace is universal in scope and intent. But thats not what original sin has referred to historically in the church. Galatians 1:3-11 Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be glory forever and ever. Exodus 33:19 Then He said, I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before you. Compare Major Beliefs of 7 Christian Denominations, What the Bible Says About Eternal Security, Examine the Core Theme of Reconciliation in the Bible, Meet the Apostle Paul: Christian Missionary Giant, What the Bible Says About Becoming a Christian, M.A., English Composition, Illinois State University, B.S., English Literature, Illinois State University. Delivered From All Our Sins by Nicholas Byfield PDF ePub Mobi or Printed Book Amen. Certainly not! The Doctrine of Conversion by Nathaniel Vincent PDF ePub Mobi or Printed Book 5. The "T" in TULIP stands for Total Depravity. . What is the nature of sin and total depravity? | Truth Challenge They argued that Gods election was more general and had reference to that group of men who exercised faith. Keep in mind that election can be of individuals, John 15:16; John 17:6; Eph. <T>ULIP - Total Depravity | CARM Forums This is simply mind-boggling and breathtaking. Be among the first to get R.C. Proverbs 16:4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. TULIP (1) - Kerusakan Total (Total Depravity) - GRII CIKARANG For more on this point, see my articlehere, or listen tothispodcast on the subject. John Calvin* Foundation laid by Augustine. Total Depravity Unconditional Election Limited Atonement Irresistible Grace Perseverance of the Saints A tulip is a flower with intertwining petals, without which, would not make up a complete flower. View our current career opportunities. Furthermore, this total depravity means that the unregenerate will not, of their own free will, choose to receive . I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion., Deuteronomy 7:6-8 For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth. Election is the sovereign act of God where, from before the foundation of the world, he chose those whom he would save (Eph. However, even that change does not instantly vanquish sin. Matt. Calvinism is a rare theology: It can be explained simply using a five-letter acronym: TULIP. A Helpful Online Chart on the Order of Salvation (the ordo salutis) by C. Matthew McMahon T - Total Depravity That means simply MAN is DEAD. The theological system of J. Calvin (found chiefly in his Institutes), esp. Special sins: that lead to death (1 Jn 5:16); a great sin (Gen 20:9); So, my simple definition of total depravity, total inability is: All human beings do wrong things against God's standards and harm other people. Total Depravity is a doctrine that stems from the TULIP. . 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness! Total Depravity- The Lutheran language on this point differs, as the bondage of the will is spoken of rather than total depravity; this is due to a possible misunderstanding that mankind is as evil as possible (utter depravity). This co-operation of the sinner, empowered by God's grace, is known as "synergism.". Is there unrighteousness with God? The Largeness of Gods Grace Seen in Predestination by William Perkins PDF ePub Mobi or Printed Book Zavada, Jack. Romans 9:6-26 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. The Doctrines of Grace: Total Depravity: Did Calvin Pick TULIPS? THE DOCTRINE OF TOTAL DEPRAVITY Let us begin with a review of what John Calvin taught on the human condition after the Fall of Adam and the possibility of return to communion with God, the first item in the TULIP construct: Total Depravity. Total Depravity - Unconditional Election | Desiring God Total depravity. 1:18; 1 Pet. 26:24; Mark 14:21. It would not longer be the doctrines of the Bible. C.H. Spurgeon on Total Depravity | ReasonableTheology.org It is unfortunate Lutherans too often confuse this doctrine with the idea of once saved always saved, and thus reject the entirety of the Reformed doctrine. Limited Atonement- This is the major area of disagreement with Reformed Theology. Calvinism | Reformed Theology and Apologetics Total depravity is the extensive ruin of man's nature. Children are better at conceiving this than most of us adults are. 30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God and righteousness and sanctification and redemption 31 that, as it is written, He who glories, let him glory in the LORD.. Matt. 8:7 ). We greatly appreciate your consideration! - R.C. 1:10; Jude 4; Rev. 1:2629; 1 Cor. They modified the doctrine of unconditional election, asserting that God did not elect individuals. 2:13, used of Christ as Messiah, Isa. 69 And He built His sanctuary like the heights, Like the earth which He has established forever. . (2020, August 26). Look at Romans 7:18-20. Isaiah 45:4 For Jacob My servants sake, And Israel My elect, I have even called you by your name; I have named you, though you have not known Me. If one petal is removed from the flower, it ceases, for all intents and purposes, to be complete. As David declared in the Old Testament, Oh, God, I was born in sin, and in sin did my mother conceive me (Ps. Otherwise you also will be cut off. Total Depravity as Total Inability - redeeminggod.com Lutherans too argue that perseverance is the sole work of God, not of man. Why is it that we who trust in God, CARM is a nonprofit, non-denominational, multi-staffed Christian Apologetics Ministry that supports evangelism, radio outreach, and provides full-time support for several foreign missionaries. Shorter Catechism of the Assembly of Divines, Larger Catechism of the Assembly of Divines, Pastoral Theology and Expository Preaching Articles, Pastoral Theology and Expository Preaching Videos, Questions Pastoral Candidates Should Ask Churches, TULIP, The Fairest Flower in Gods Garden by Dr. John Gerstner, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination by Loraine Boettner, Assurance of Grace and Salvation: What It Is; How To Attain It; Why More Do Not Enjoy It by William Plumer, Conviction and Conversion by Dr. William S. Plumer, Repentance and Conversion by Dr. William S. Plumer, Faith and Conversion by Dr. William S. Plumer, Jesus Died for Aliens on Planet Zeno by Dr. C. Matthew McMahon, The Doctrines of Grace by Christopher Blum, The Perseverance of the Saints by Dr. C. Matthew McMahon, For Whom Did Christ Die?