james river assembly scandal

Wow! For a number of reasons Texans dont want to say bad things about a church no matter how many people are being hurt. The worship leaders laugh about it. Not me, not you, and definitely not Mark Driscoll. Some of it probably is. Im not kidding. Im fairly certain MD would enjoy being categorized with a so called revolutionary. Imagine that. rocks are flying people are shouting opposition and accusations., in christian language christians are like sheep, opponents are like wolves, alpha, saul. But Christians are under the New Covenant and the NT calls Christians to expose false teachers, not facilitate their cover ups. James River Church makes promise after Christmas event backlash Even if youre looking at Christianity from a strictly business like mindset, I dont see how its good marketing or profitable to do the sexist shtick. Dont forget his church plant was asked to leave my kids school at the time. Its a measure of arrogance. To tell, perhaps? . Let's see. I am the way and the truth, no one comes to the Father, but through Me -Jesus, all those who call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved!. plausible they shoved that in jesus mouth, with that taste on his lips. (the death of Jesus on the cross as written in the bible is not enough, mark adds something more exciting and sickening like they shoved an a##-wipe sponge in Jesus mouth.) Can anyone explain this James River Church thing to me? And the honest churches will know that most of the allegations are true and will be too ashamed to say anything. The prophets in that verse are likewise OT prophets and also refers only to physical harm. Gateway is so deceptive in all their practices. I cannot respect or support these men knowing that they revere such a man as a pastor. And Ive certainly heard many tales of people who were awful people moving onto ministry later on in life. Do my eyes deceive me? In the case of Chandler, the fudgy language in the apologies does not instill much confidence that the root has been exposed so that it can be dug out. I will post about this. Hosted at every James River Church campus. I did disagree, however, with this one sentence. Is to be- Actually are pews still in general use? OZARK, Mo. At a cash price of 2600 Denarii ($210,000 in Roman money) a book? Its much harder to leave that way. an important thing you wrote about gateway i think. Are you not voting for the candidates and issues Gateway told you to? I had never heard someone talk like that. You want to go all Colonel Jessup and rant about the truth? Missouri church service Saturday evening. Others obviously put a lot more emphasis on organizational structures, so they might see things differently. starts with: it is heartbreaking to have to help them get through the transfer of custody until the one can get through a treatment and be able to be around the child again. i think that Jesus and God are Awesome, the only crisis i have been having is in my view of the world and the church. Dont you want to be a part of that? Its just that it isnt what a NT pastor of a group of Christians should be doing. It is identical to another certain entertainment industry where faking it means everything and in my opinion the industry representing the older profession is less offensive. But maybe power is just something that is too tempting for him to handle and in order for him to live out his life following Christ, it may be something he must never let pass his lipsmuch like alcoholics cannot drink again. peaceable disposition. I dont think it is realistic. Sincerely want to know what the alternative is. 34 They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink. I didnt realize tens of thousands had already left. May the Lord bless our search for da truth, and grant us mucho wisdom. . Thats how reasonable people see past the wicked. He has lots of pics holding impoverished babies while his own 5 kids barely saw him. This is off topic but your question has been the basis of discussion with many associates for the last 6 months, many recently leaving an authoritarian church. (glorifies paul. Six months for Driscoll does not represent later in life, give him another ten or twenty years. Totally. I dont see how or why the Jerusalem church could have trusted him at that point, even though they might (or some of them might) have believed his vision and repentance were real. I really do believe that Driscoll has sociopathic tendencies. Then the authentic community unravels like a cheap Walmart sweater. Why exiles dont speak out is a strange phenomenon. @ Nancy: Join us for life-giving worship, encouraging stories and testimonies, and a powerful message from Pastor John. It was especially appropriate to hear last night since our current sermon series is on the topic of Worship. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast. Pun intended. We would be interested in any thoughts you may have regarding Mark Driscoll's message. Im all for forgiveness but this complete whitewash of history when someone offers up an opportunistic Im sorry is not something I see in day to day life. they may think i just sit around judging peoples apologies or repentance. Mark is playing the victim. It is all choreographed and it works! I arrived a little late here, and this has likely already been mentioned (I havent read all comments). It was dingy and old. appeciate your posts and the others on this blog, i remember that, thanks Van, for the reminder. Its kind of like that movie Winters Bone where the communities are closed to a fault. Totally. And he actually dismissed several of them as how Sissies or men who wear product in their hair act. MD should never have been a pastor based on how much contempt he has for his fellow man. If so you may be onto something. I hope you encourage them to visit TWW. Maybe Driscoll feels a notch above Paul since hes not called for any ones death? They didnt fail. You cant speak in tongues? They knew exactly what they were buying. James River Assembly hosted a Christmas pageant last December in the midst of the covid pandemic. He had founded the church in 1996. Location. I would say he was a tyrannical charlatan that used people for his own purposes and claiming it was of Christ. Actually are pews still in general use? They are not good for him, and he not good for the people he leads. However, some of his employees and family were taken in by SBTS and seem to be doing ok. IMO, the church as a whole can help to regulate these things by exposing them and explaining how they do not reflect Christ at all. LT: Certainly they all hire each other as guest speakers in order to pay large honorariums from tithe dollars that end up in each others personal bank accounts. (He repented quite often in the past when some were afraid to put his vulgarity on their conference stages.Piper shilled for "repentance"). He told me he appreciated my column and my work at the News-Leader. There is a very strong argument for both priests and politicians to have both life and work experience before they enter the fray, however this is the age of the career priest and pollie. I think that the only way to self regulate is to have benchmarks that people must reach to be in leadership positions. It is possible for someone who is engaged in homosexual behavior to stop.". For all the lack of American Idol production values I learned more in that one day of teaching at that little church then I did in all the years I attended Gateway. He further states: A door was closed to who I was and a door was opened to who I became. I can't help but wonder whether Driscoll is talking about Paul or himself. Many teach that when Paul said he was chief of all sinners he was claiming to be as evil as he always was. If there is one thing I know it is that those around Acts 29 circles are now in Mark who? Far as I can tell Driscoll is arrogant, a lover of money, unholy, not above reproach, etc. Just volunteers. And thus, I think that the only way to self regulate is to have benchmarks that people must reach to be in leadership positions. So I can see why some churches would want him on board. He could continue the stance that we could not leave because we were under discipline and offend the large donor, or he could let us leave in peace and not offend the donor. We saw the Dallas Morning News drop TVC story like it had Ebola germs on it despite knowing that parents were not being warned of a pedophile in their midst. No I wouldnt allow someone who was an embezzler or criminal back in charge, of course not. Even his outrageous speak was a game where he would then delete then repent then do againshampoo, rinse, repeat. standing. Covenants, ruling elders, etc. Its really big in Charismatic/Pentecostal circles I think mainly because they are more predisposed to bad behavior (think TBN and Daystar whackos). If there is one thing I think is missing from the entire narrative of interpreting scripture it is the theme of wisdom running through it from Genesis on. Your comment is insightful and probably (for the AoG churches) right on the money. How can they do that? Persecuted, but You cant criticize me for a moment. any way i am still wrestling with my view of my world and churches and like you mentioned, gun shy when i go into a new church. have caused me to go into a major identity crisis, what i thought were well meaning however slightly misguided churches and some of the right wing christian patriots are not who or what i thought they were. Three women have now blown the whistle on a program operated by the Ministry, including allegations they entered as independent people, however came out of the program as broken and suicidal. i have met people that have told me that they went to gateway (and other churches that are similar) but no longer do without ever saying why. None of them see anything wrong with this. *MD and Mark Demoss calculated an irresistible snow job, tailored just for pentecostalworld (who are generally open to things without empirical proof). Otherwise, its authentic shunning for you. years ago when non denoms were pentecostal and full gospelit seemed they were trying to get back to the Jesus of the bible, the Living Jesus. What I dont get is that those pastors dont care if they look completely dishonest in their statements. Yep. Pouring? What do you think, Albuquerque? BTW they didnt have a head worship pastor. The man can speak pretty well and seems to fill the pews. LT wrote: until he apologizes to the elders and church members he hurt so badly i dont think there will be a true repentance that God can use. the money that was supposed to be going to missionaries in another country had been intertwined with the general fund. One of the most chilling doctrines out of Calvinism is using Paul for this purpose. Did he write (with $200k ResultSource juice job) a Best-Seller on His Humility (chuckle chuckle)? I believe these churches are using Driscoll as fallen pastor insurance. Its just another singing and acting gig for many of them. There was an uncanny feeling to this experience. They may have been totally shocked when Mark began to spew his rude, humiliating, oppressive descriptions and warped perceptions of scripture and men and women. It was never presented to me as something evil just something totally unnecessary and potentially dangerous. And he was not originally trusted or met with open arms by the Jesus believers of the day. Because for me, it is the center of the practice of Christianity, and I had missed it. Why This Popular Megachurch Pastor Almost Gave Up His Ministry Are we really talking about clerical influence/position/authority and money? In my opinion Gateway is a cult not a church so they lose their Winters Bone protection status. Rob Smiths orphanage was totally defunded and left broke by Marks Hill, the Lord has taken up for those children, thankfully. Could Driscoll really appeal to people now using his Macho Man shtick? They worked hard to get where they are and make the assocations that would help them. People think that Christians want filled pews and big churches, most do, i strongly disagree with that. James River Church Online - James River TV He should not be making a buck off Jesus in any way, shape, or form, IMO. He can be reached at 836-1253, spokin@gannett.com, on Twitter @stevepokinNL or by mail at 651 N. Boonville, Springfield, MO 65806. I dont think theres been any repentance at all. His career has been a total focus on getting his narcissistic supply. hes a wonderful pastor to the very end. Just like Jerry Springer would invite the Duggers on his show after the scandal? No I wouldnt allow someone who was an embezzler or criminal back in charge, of course not. Bob, I loved your comment. Thats an interesting thought. Where are all the former higly paid speaking gigs that were constant and kept his calendar full with travel? The guests are members and attendees (because many regulars never joined). Its more the non-complementarian position to argue that women should be allowed to preach/lead based on gifting and that sounds like the argument Driscoll is raising in the quotes by him I placed in this post. But with those reading glasses they are losing their hipness and relevance and megas feed off of young marrieds with children. I told him that. If you become used to a certain standard of living, that does not mean you are entitled to that standard of living. Why would anyone seek to admire and celebrate a man who plotted to kill millions of innocent American civilians? Silly me! Why am I concerned? 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All the celebrity has to do is play the victim/repented card and teach cheap grace. Any of all of that may be true. And later did sort of brag about how beneficial it was to him in his spiritual life. They may have been totally shocked when Mark began to spew his rude, humiliating, oppressive descriptions and warped perceptions of scripture and men and women. i found it impossible to take advantage of people, i found that if i hurt someone even unententionally i couldnt sleep until i made it right. Photos show large crowds at Missouri's James River Church | The Kansas I think many. (This was all before the sex sermons and book.) Yet its everywhere in the US and Australia. Acts 6:15, they were enraged. In other words, his behavior did change. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-07/royal-commission-child-sexual-abuse-investigates-hillsong/5795308 The first time, it was shocking. Working at James River is never be boring because of the mission that you are pursuing and the amazing things that you get to be a part of. It so important, huh, that we share that Jesus came to save us from sin, and to give us His life. @ Bob M: Do any of you who oppose Driscoll preaching or running a church again, is there a way he could ever get forgiveness from yall to do that sort of ministry again? Didnt God send a vision or angel to some other guy, or a dream to him, and tell him about Paul, that Paul could be trusted? I have learned much on this blog and often from your comments which are intelligent and insightful. As a result, the IRS has guidelines on their political activity. So many damaged lives. "Martin Luther, the great reformer, said this: 'If you preach the gospel in all aspects with the exception of the issues which deal specifically with your time you are not preaching the gospel at all.' In the wake of this and other scandals, the Mars Hill Church collapsed . They are relinquishing 10-20% of their gross income. Sincerely want to know what the alternative is. She was warned not to work with Agathos. Welcome to the James River Church YouTube Channel where you will find weekly encouraging sermons from Pastor John Lindell and others! (KY3) - James River Church responded Monday to complaints after social media images show little social distancing and few masks at its Christmas celebrations. king does not stand up for you. The worship leaders are all carefully coached and choreographed on how to appear more worshipful and fake their collective ecstatic elation over being one with their maker. I recently ran into Scott Thomas and asked him about his promise to never abandon our orphans. He was no longer at Mars Hill Church and was himself suffering a level of abuse from the Mars Hill Church leadership. "It was clear to me that Mark's attendance had the potential to divert attention from the real purpose of Hillsong Conference, which is to see people leave encouraged in their own spiritual journey.". People shift roles all the time (Mark has obviously been a persecutor a lot!). he (stephen) probably had a ministry, forgiving means you transfer judgment to Jesus, thats what he does, (stephen transfers it to jesus to judge paul), words fail me, but a wrote a bunch which should be up soon lol, i tweeted: When you go to these posh country clubesque entertainment centers their #1 priority is to get visitors connected and plugged in. . What I saw was the 2 verses that I had typed on a 35 card and tacked to my bulletin board. They will promise to give you an authentic community to do life with. And so on. The only two ways that I can think of for having said benchmarks, assuming by leadership you mean pastor(s) and not just chairman of some committee, is either having a system with central authority with established criteria which must be met prior to ordination and some written policies which are grounds for dismissal in certain conditions, That would be a denominational hierarchical system with designated people with authority and with something in writing, like an official book of how we do it. Or else to have a savvy and informed and mature congregation who would agree with and co-operate with each other on what was necessary and what needed done and which would have the actual power (backing of the people) to get it done. i think He has some Jesus in him, it just gets mixed up with other stuff. He needs a revenue stream and using Jesus is all he knows. We will definitely check it out. Connect With Us! Driscoll has used this vague parallels to himself many times, framing the sermon in the context of his own life with the lives of other noble characters, most notably Jesus. shuning is not always done professionally as in TVC but so often done whisperingly in churches but the effect is the same to the person shunned. Any allegations are probably not as bad as the truth. I felt physically ill when I saw them. You can learn a lot about someones character from how they treat those who are below them in status. I was reading related posts and noticed hes playing the martyr role as Driscoll did. James River Church, a multi-campus, 17,000-member megachurch in Missouri, is now fending off strong criticism from the public and health officials after pictures posted on social media showed what appear to be hundreds of unmasked people, practicing very little social distancing packed inside their Springfield location to participate in Christmas Personally I do not believe God would ever anoint a blatant false teacher. I hope you found some of the above helpful. Are you not voting? I just think that there is not much reason to listen to just his side of the story and think that is all there may be to it. pastor says: ATB then mark goes on to teach us that we must forgive even if the person never admits wrong or says I am sorry: vengance is where you make someone pay. Excellent comment! Maybe the apostles did not want to be found by a major persecutor of the movement and Saul/Paul had no alternative but to put some distance between himself and his previous life until things calmed down a bit. But it would be encouraging if they did. So, basically he functioned as Howard Stern for Christians. And thats just the tip of the iceberg. I recently had coffee with a staunch Mark Driscoll supporter who has chided any criticism of Mark Driscoll and strongly challenged me for every apparent infraction of the last year, yet at the same time vigorously excused or defended every one of Driscolls mistakes. The supporter said some awful things about me and Agathos, particularly its misuse of funds. But MD has been a jerk as far as Ive read, not a criminal or anything. I completely understand why you are so skeptical. So quick question if anyone wants to take a whack at it. "In other words, you can believe what you want within the confines of the four walls of the church as long as you don't live it outside of the church.". It seems like the big megas tend to adopt or embrace some of the sleazier or ungodly aspects of other churches verses the more positive programs like community services. Very simple. your comments are great. Thats why places like TWW are imperative. A group of followers dealing directly with each other and not with an institution sounds appealing. hmmm COuld someone explain how its supposed to work without a leader . appeciate your posts and the others on this blog. As much as I distrust Acts29 and the YRR, and as much as many see Matt Chandlers action as mere damage control, at least he admitted that they screwed up, and there is still hope that he really meant it and that they will really act differently in the future because theyve learned something. "And how many knownot everything you read on the internet is true". what would you say and do (if they stoned you) angry mob is murdering him openly publicly and shamefully. I have a young friend who was totally enamored with him. Again. So, I read what he wrote, I listened to his speeches, sermons, etc. Q. The Lord called to him in a vision, Ananias! Hosting a giant event without distancing or masking is irresponsible and insulting to the people on the front lines of this crisis, most especially the health care workers who are overwhelmed. Reveal the conspiracy please. Jesus Church or 501(c)3 Religious business? In case this was not a rhetorical question, Mark also provided the all important yet elusive authentic community. Missouri church service Saturday evening. You might be interested in this post from this recent post at Stand Firm, an Anglican blog, regarding Hillsong. any way i am still wrestling with my view of my world and churches and like you mentioned, gun shy when i go into a new church. Nor to any of the other dead bodies behind the bus. Its just that it isnt what a NT pastor of a group of Christians should be doing. They want their congregations and the world at large to believe that there are no amount of misdeeds that a pastor can perform, no matter how egregious, that means they shouldnt be instantly forgiven and returned to the pulpit ASAP. It probably did. What Mark Driscoll Told Brian Houston at Hillsong Conference (updated) I read your comment and have thought about this a lot. Also, there is a difference, IMO, between forgiveness and trust restoration. Marks of a bully, and definitely not qualifications of an elder. paul was all about not having followers or being glorified. All you have to do is say some magic words and we end up being the mean ones if dare say we otherwise. And Ive certainly heard many tales of people who were awful people moving onto ministry later on in life. I think MDs desire to be on a stage, at this point, is a sure sign he should not be there. Don't you know that the way he behaved and treated people is no big deal? one person, after 6 months finally started to say why they didnt attend gateway anymore and it made me wonder why people dont warn others. I fully understand the depression and near paralysis that comes after leaving a cult. Just typing this has made me a bit queasy. For mr. driscoll to change the whole meaning of this into the sponge was probably really used as toilet paper because he did some study in some far away country is to bring doubt to Gods prophecies and the fulfilment of them. I said some decent things, but one can and probably ought to take that with a grain of salt. 16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD. James River Church - YouTube My old church Gateway has atmosphere teams in services to emotionally manipulate members and visitors. I dont think many realize that in order to have real repentance they would have to give all that up. One needed them because they were somehow spiritually qualified (?) it isnt anguish if i dont care and i am just a head of some church deciding that someone cant seperate or divorce or annul because i dont have time to look into it right now and i will get back to them with my judgment when i think its appropriate. By the way, what do you call a person who tells lies? The resistance is to Jesus. It came swiftly and with great effect. He genuinely seemed to care. Anyone who invites Driscoll without knowing his background also displays no judgement. (Note I did not diagnose) I do believe seen in that light, it makes it simpler to see how he gets by with it and why some who also make their living in similar ways are promoting him. I dont equate it with forgiveness at all. pure grace are you or have been in similar situation to stephen? CCHD has been in contact with the City of Ozark, where the venue is located and where there is a current masking ordinance in place. I called Stephens and informed him Lindell had mentioned him in a sermon. I see him as a conference speaker on a different circuit. He was a mass murdering thug. AFter the persecution and time in Antioch, Barnabus seems to make a decision on his own to go to Tarsus to find Paul. It shouldnt be about raw numbers of attenders and financial statements if it is a true church. Are you not reporting instant healing to keep the confirmed miracle count up? James River Church - Leadership not always what they portray Additionally, Jonna Petry (who started the blog Joyful Exiles) was shunned along with the Petry children. since we are all clergy??? Watch LIVE every Sunday at 9am, 10:45am, 12:30pm, and 7pm as well as every Wednesday at 7pm. Youd think theyd feel a sense of civic duty there. If a pastor says anything positive about another pastor, and that other pastor has a history of patterns of behavior and teachings that are destructive it is wise to ask pastor 1 if he has checked him out before he promotes him. Its all PR spin, because they got caught with their (or, pardon the metaphor, MDs) pants down. © 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022 - The Wartburg Watch. Any allegations are probably not as bad as the truth. And Ive certainly heard many tales of people who were awful people moving onto ministry later on in life. It is often just a wise thing to do if one is familiar with those types. COuld someone explain how its supposed to work without a leader . You have no idea how freeing it has been not to be shamed into believing the best groupthink of celebs when in fact, patterns, polity, hierarchical doctrines and associations should have given us pause all along. Except we now know Mark didnt actually write he books he used ghost writers and plagiarized, but minor details, an important thing you wrote about gateway i think.